• Buffalox@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    How is “someone called” enough evidence to enter peoples homes and arrest them?
    These officers should lose their job,

    • abbiistabbii@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      2 months ago

      So (not so) fun fact: Keffals, who was targeted by KiwiFarms for being trans (yes that’s all) and got Swatted. She then went to stay with another streamer (EllenFromNowOn) in Northern Ireland. Just for information sake, Northern Ireland is still a bit rocky security wise, Police there still carry guns on the regular. So when she went there, Ellen called up the police and explained the situation to them (they had never heard of Swatting weirdly enough).

      Sure enough, someone found her flat, posted her address (with a message referencing a Unionist Slogan, Ellen was from the Catholic Community), and sure enough, the police came. Instead of raiding her all guns blasing (which they normally would) they saw the warning, knocked on the door, saw nothing was wrong, called off the squaddies, and came in to basically make sure everything was okay.

      Bare in mind, this was in Northern Ireland, a place where the Police still drive Armored cars and have regular riots, and they handled this better than the Police in London, Ontario.

      • finley@lemm.ee
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        2 months ago

        As an American, I read this, and it made me me want to cry

        • Elaine@lemm.ee
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          2 months ago

          As an American reading this, I kept wondering when the mayhem and death would occur.

          • 800XL@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            As an American I wondered when the police would be made the victims and the actual victim would either get shot or arrested and blamed.

        • Zink@programming.dev
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          2 months ago

          As an American, this line short circuited my brain:

          Police there still carry guns on the regular

          I live in a quiet but growing suburban town that’s closer to rural areas than the nearest city. When I walk my kid to elementary school (how European of us, lol) the police officer working as a crossing guard for the kids still has their gun, taser, bulletproof vest, and all their other gear on.

          And it’s not a school-specific thing. You just never see cops without their weapons here. Armed and armored is just part of the uniform, essentially.

          • vala@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            The bullet proof vests really get me. They are so heavy and unlikely to be nessesary but some cops wear them ever day just to LARP.

            • deafboy@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              One could argue the vests are like seat belts in a car. You don’t need them 99.9% of the time.

              • vala@lemmy.world
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                2 months ago

                Ironic because it’s not unusual for cops to not wear seatbelts but they are more likely to die in a single vehicle accident then a gun fight.

      • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        Yeah the cops on this side of the pond are crazy, and their leadership staff tend to fall a lot further into the “complete psycho” side of the human spectrum.

        Thanks for sharing that story though - the dichotomy is absolutely fucking wild, especially considering we’re talking about Northern Ireland.

        • tpihkal@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          How often are police tipped off before hand that someone is anticipating being SWATed though?

          That situation is practically unheard of so it’s impossible to know how police in the US would respond.

          • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works
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            2 months ago

            Yeah, that’s definitely a quandary. But in the case of people who know they might be (or have been previously) targeted with that sort of bullshit, it’s a prudent precaution in the US (and Canada too, evidently)

        • orcrist@lemm.ee
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          2 months ago

          In the US, property records are public records. Easy to find someone’s address online if you know their full name and the county they own property in.

          Go try it!

        • abbiistabbii@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          2 months ago

          Oh there’s several ways, especially if you have poor opsec. People used to raid people’s twitch accounts and bring down their internet connections by looking for their username on Skype which had a vulnerability which they could use to find a person’s IP.

          For swatters on the otherhand, they tend to either know the streamer themselves or they tend to be groups like KiwiFarms who are a lot more organised and do a lot of research and detective work, like looking at the video, looking for usernames elsewhere, looking for emails, and looking for location clues. It’s really fucked up. They found Keffels’s Motel by the sheets in her room. It’s bad enough if you do not think about these things and just have sloppy OpSec, but even if you do, they can still find you.

          • barsquid@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            The sheets in the motel room, that’s insane. A while back I read something like a stalker caught a reflection in someone’s eye at a train station, that’s horrific enough. But I would have thought being indoors is relatively safe. It is like impossible to put out video content at all without being vulnerable.

        • steeznson@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          I mean, there were riots last month and then the last time I recall riots before then was 2019 when the journalist was shot. There might be more inbetween I’ve forgotten but a cadence of 5 years is more than the ~10 year cadence for mainland UK (which is culturally very similar). Sectarian tensions have died down in the past 20 years - my sister is currently in Belfast and loving it - but they still exist and have deep roots.

      • steeznson@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Keffals has a bit of a bad stink around her online presence. I think she claimed to be posting sex hormones to underage people at one point, without any kind of medical license. One of the ecelebs on the weirder side of the terminally online subculture.

        Obviously no one should ever be swatted. Wanted to mention that she is somewhat controversial though as opposed to a regular activist.

    • MyNameIsRichard@lemmy.ml
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      2 months ago

      Well, I guess if someone calls and says you have kidnapped a little girl and that they have seen you with a gun, the police can’t take a chance that it’s hoax. All phone numbers that call the police should be logged and if it turns out to be a hoax, traced, so people who make hoax calls can be arrested and prosecuted.

      • Buffalox@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        If they enter his home, and there is no evidence of a crime, then what is the basis for the arrest?
        One thing is to investigate the truth of a call, another is to act on it as if it’s verbatim truth.

        • Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          Was he arrested? I don’t see follow up. It only says he was handcuffed which would be standard until they know what’s going on.

          • orcrist@lemm.ee
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            2 months ago

            In the US, the cops need RAS to handcuff you. The standard was never and is not “until they know what’s going on”. And RAS depends on the current cop knowledge. Even if they had legal grounds to break into your place, what they see in the next ten seconds is still relevant. For example, if someone said you attacked them with a knife, when the cops see no victim, knife, or blood, their legal authority ceases.

            Of course it’s all highly dependent on specific details.

            (On traffic stops, often they already have RAS. That’s why they pulled you over. So don’t be fooled by other comments about that topic.)

          • Buffalox@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            OK, here it’s the other way around, you don’t normally handcuff somebody unless they are arrested.

            • Jo Miran@lemmy.ml
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              2 months ago

              You get handcuffed as a precaution. You do not have to be arrested. You can het handcuffed on a traffic stop if the officer decides they have cause to search your car. Etc.

              • Nurgus@lemmy.world
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                2 months ago

                Just because handcuffung is normal in the USA, that doesnt make it normal or sensible. No one gets cuffed in a normal traffic stop or house visit in the UK for example.

        • freewheel@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          It’s not technically an arrest. In a high-stakes call, the police will typically detain everybody until they can figure out what’s going on. That means potential victims as well as potential attackers. It’s a safety measure.

          • orcrist@lemm.ee
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            2 months ago

            In the US, the 4th Amendment says that’s unconstitutional. Fortunately. Too many dirty pigs out there.

      • NaN@lemmy.sdf.org
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        2 months ago

        They are logged, but swatting people get around it. They are suspicious “looking” calls, but so are bomb threats.

        Swatting is pretty much always a blocked number to a non-emergency line. If they are traced it is typically one of those free online voip services. It takes work and access to really get from A to B, which is why it only happens when there are awful results.

        In the US at least, 911 gets special access and calling it will always get you to your local dispatch (unless you have voip with the wrong account address). Non-emergency is just a normal phone number. If someone wants to call from out of the area or hide their number, non-emergency is how they have to do it. This is suspicious because in a real situation like “I just shot my dad” or whatever they say, nobody is taking time to look up non-emergency.

    • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
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      2 months ago

      Someone calls an emergency number and says “My husband has a knife and he’s threatening to kill me!”

      Should the operator say “nothing we can do until you provide provide me with some evidence, ma’am” ?

      • Taleya@aussie.zone
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        2 months ago

        Lmao the cops take four hours to send someone then say she was just being dramatic in that scenario

        • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
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          2 months ago

          Well the cops might be taking pics of a dead body the next day. So then they could say “yeah we probably should’ve responded to that one last night, but we just couldn’t risk that it might’ve been one of the 0.01% of these calls where it turns out it’s an internet swatting thing.”

          • Burn_The_Right@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            Yep. I guess there are no other possible methods of conducting a police investigation than your suggested method. Pack it in, boys. Space Cowboy’s got it all figured out for us!

              • Burn_The_Right@lemmy.world
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                2 months ago

                Here’s an extremely easy one. When in doubt, just knock on the goddamned door and talk with someone instead of kicking the door in, tossing flash-bangs and jamming rifles in people’s faces. Knock… and talk. SWAT shouldn’t be entering unless there’s a barricaded suspect.

                • TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
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                  2 months ago

                  The first thing is what they did. They knocked on the door, they spoke. At one point he was detained when they had a look about and then they apologised and left.

                  There was no SWAT (this is Germany so technically it would be a SEK team I guess), there was no flashbangs (why would police even have those?), there were no rifles in faces.

            • flashgnash@lemm.ee
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              2 months ago

              If someone’s in imminent danger sending police capable of protecting them from said danger seems like a reasonable idea

      • Burn_The_Right@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        This is a bad faith straw-man argument that pretends there are no other options than what you’ve presented. Weak.

        • JackbyDev@programming.dev
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          2 months ago

          That’s how swatting works though. They don’t just call 911 and say “send police to this place” lol.

    • BrianTheeBiscuiteer@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      If this is legal then it’s a giant gaping loophole in the system. Not just because it’s easy to harass someone but because it sounds incredibly easy for a cop to call in an “anonymous tip” on someone they suspected of wrongdoing but had no evidence to support it. I’m almost positive the Supreme Court has even held that evidence that was gathered in the course of raiding the wrong building is legal as it’s an “honest mistake”.

    • mbirth@lemmy.ml
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      2 months ago

      In the comments the victim said that the police said it were two emails they got. Not even a call.

    • UnfortunateShort@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      He probably wasn’t arrested. It sounds like the police handcuffed him while checking whether he was indeed alone and then asked about what he was doing at his computer. After he explained, they asked him to turn off the stream, at which point I would assume he was freed again.

      I assume they went on to explain the situation and then questioned him. If there is no evidence of any crime, they will just take his personals so they can contact him on any development. He is the victim of a crime after all.

      • Pika@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        Man the audacity of that though, they came into his house, interrupted his evening and then asked him to turn off the stream that he’s doing. All while he didn’t actually do anything wrong.

        The entitlement is insane.

      • lily33@lemm.ee
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        2 months ago

        I don’t know - but I’m willing to get the instances where people were saved weren’t calls from anonymous voip numbers.

        • tabular@lemmy.world
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          Not sure why your intuition would go there, I can imagine situations where the caller would feel/be threatened if they didn’t remain anonymous. After hearing about people suing for helping them in emergency situations and police abusing people’s rights to get evidence then if I felt I had to report something I’d want to remain anonymous.

      • Possibly linux@lemmy.zip
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        2 months ago

        If there is a serious situation like human trafficking then it makes more sense. Also if they might blow down the door in a drug bust

        • 🏳️‍🌈🜏Technomancer🜏🏳️‍🌈@mstdn.social
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          @possiblylinux127 @tabular , well, regarding a married couple I know, the wife was away taking care of her granddaughter for a bit, came back to her husband having sketchy people in their home while she was gone. The wife wanted the police to sweep the house for drugs and alleged these people probably brought drugs in their home. The police said there was nothing they can do. Lovely double standards.
          Edit: Also, you could smell the pot off the people easily. They were definitely stoned.

    • orcrist@lemm.ee
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      2 months ago

      The legal standard in the U.S. is if there’s exigent circumstances. Detailed 911 calls are typically sufficient to meet that standard. Not always.

      Right now, we cannot tell if the officers did anything unlawful. Need the call recording or call logs, plus the body cameras.

      (I think the exigent circumstances standard is BS, easily abused, but that is the current law of the land.)

        • orcrist@lemm.ee
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          2 months ago

          I know. And many of the comments are coming from the US, so I’m trying to help American readers see what US law would dictate in a similar situation, because they might have instincts that are inconsistent with US law.

          • Grimpen@lemmy.ca
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            2 months ago

            The police also knocked and only entered after he answered it sounded like. While certainly armed and probably prepared for something wild, they didn’t force entry with guns at the ready.

            Once again, mostly comparing to videos of US police interactions, which is kind of weird as a non-USian commenting on a German police interrogation. Would be curious to see an “audit the audit” type review of this.

    • x00za@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      2 months ago

      Even if a streamer is a big target, and the police is aware, they will still go and check it out. It’s an inconvenience for everybody involved, but it’s still the best way to go about it. The only thing that can really be done is to track the people making the calls, or I think in this case an email? Anyways, in Germany you can get jail time for doing this, and they do try and track them down.

        • Ookami38@sh.itjust.works
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          2 months ago

          Cuffed would be more like detained. Not free to leave, because they’re actively investigating, but no charges are being presented. Literally just placed in cuffs while the police do their snooping.

    • unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de
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      2 months ago

      This is such an obviously dumb take its unbelievabe anyone would come up with it. Ofcourse the cops need to respond to a call of someone claiming to be assaulted/abused/murdered. There is no issue with this at all. The issue that CAN arise is that bad police training might lead to someone getting actually hurt in a raid like this. But thats an entirely different issue.

      • Buffalox@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Ofcourse the cops need to respond

        Yes, but then there’s the matter of HOW they respond.

        • chiliedogg@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          If you have reason to believe someone is in mortal danger, your response shouldn’t be to mail a letter giving them 30 days to respond.

          You send police to the scene where they secure the potential suspect and make sure there’s nothing going on.

    • delirious_owl@discuss.online
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      2 months ago

      To make more money for the weapons manufacturers.

      SWAT teams didn’t always exist. Many would argued they should not exist. But if they no longer exited, police would spend less money in military style equipment.

      Police don’t care if SWATing is harming people. They just need to keep their expenses high, and SWAT teams are great for that.

    • Quack Doc@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      I strongly disagree with this. Police should be given permission to do these things. Very rapidly with little evidence so long as they’re handled right.

      In fact, this is one of those cases where it looks like it was handled right. He went to the door, came in, and it sounds like they were invited in. He was not arrested immediately and thrown to the ground. Yes it sucks, But there are very much very many cases where it is absolutely necessary.

      Rather than them not being able to do it, I absolutely believe they should be allowed to do it. Just be more strict on how it’s handled.

      • Buffalox@lemmy.world
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        Maybe this was done properly, but I was thrown off by the handcuff bit, here it’s not normal to handcuff somebody who cooperates.