Hi. In today’s episode, we look at Planned Obsolescence, the resulting mountains of e-waste, and why companies don’t want you to be able to fix their crummy products.
If you expect Cody to be nice to Apple, you will be very disappointed.
Damn, did Technology Connections get everybody fired up? I just watched an Unlearning Economics video on the same topic.
What video did he do recently that would have gotten people fired up about this?
Tech Con: https://youtu.be/zb7Bs98KmnY
UnEcon: https://youtu.be/Fz68ILyuWtA
Might be more of a Baader-Meinhof phenomenon for me, because those two videos were just recommended to me back-to-back, and I’ve only watched the second one so far.
I really expected zero updoots here and maybe a reply saying I’m dumb cuz Tech Con barely said anything about obsolescence. I was just stream-of-consciousness’ing, but I guess others are feeling the same vibes? ¯\(ツ)/¯
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So. I’ve seen the some more news video as well as the Technology Connections one. I have not see the Unlearning Economics one (but it’s going on my docket for tomorrow).
Basically the Some more News video is just a simple overview on the concept of Planned Obsolescence i.e. the idea that some things are designed/engineered in a way so they will break easier/faster than they normally would or made in such a way that a repair is not economically viable so that instead of keeping/repairing a product a customer has to buy a new regularly.
One if the most famous and oldest examples is the lightbulb cartel where lightbulb manufacturer actually had a contract that limited how long a lightbulb would live to 1000h (including penalties if the manufacturers produced longer living bulbs). Iirc Cody mentioned that one in his video as well (I will watch all 3 vida back to back tomorrow just to straighten things out here).
Now this “Phoebus” cartel as it was called is exactly what the Technology Connections video is about. However Alecs point is a different one. He is basically saying that while it was true the cartel limited the Lifetime it also meant they were producing “better” bulbs. Namely ones that would burn brighter while using the same amount of power as ones that would last longer. His second point is that lightbulbs are more or less a “spare part” i.e. they are cheap and easy to replace (usually) so if one breaks you don’t have to throw away your nightlamp or whatever it is attached to you simply replace the bulb with a cheap replacement and you’re good.
So basically the Technology Connections Videos Thesis is the Phoebus Cartell wasn’t actually planned obsolescence but a move to a better lightbulb and a bit more runtime (2.5x in his example) isn’t worth the worse light output.
Baader-Meinhof??? I hardly know her Meinhof!
It was the one about lightbulbs, I presume. Two months ago…
Apple in my opinion is one of the worst companies at sustainability. Like yes the product is fast and reliable until it doesn’t. Then you have to throw the whole thing away instead of being able to change the single piece that it’s not good anymore.
This take is hilarious. Apple, which has phones that are the longest lasting with the longest updates, is somehow the worst company? Have you ever worked on tech before? Dude, I cannot tell you how many shitty ass galaxy S3-4s I repaired that had “pillow pack” where the battery dies and inflates. Or how many LG phones got stuck in a boot loop, or how many HTC devices had broke ports that were soldered to the mobo so it was either charge to solder (yeah ok) a new one on or buy a new phone again.
When I was working on enterprise systems it was the same story too. MacBooks only ever had problems if someone dropped it and broke the screen, otherwise those things lasted upwards of 8 years and that was 10 years ago when laptops didn’t last for shit. We threw out thousands of Acer and Asus Chromebooks every 4 years back in the day because Google and the manufacturer would stop giving them security updates so they couldn’t test with them. Or god forbid it was one of those crap Samsung Chromebooks at which point the little DC pin connector just basically broke and it was again a port soldered to a mobo.
I get that Apple isn’t perfect. I can shit on them for their monopolistic behavior, their longstanding hatred to self repair, and their walled garden systems that make it impossible to administrate over as a sysadmin. However to say they’re the worst offender in an industry with peers like Samsung, LG, Acer, Asus and others is laughable. At least we can get 8 years out of a device. Hell the iPhone 6 received almost a full DECADE of security updates with 6 solid years of full system updates. Sustainability is beyond just repairability. It’s also how long a device can actively, and safely, be in service.
This is a very jaded and warped take with some bias.
Fight me (ง’̀-‘́)ง
Everyone is biased. I’d like to think my 12 years working all over in various parts of the tech sector has made me more well rounded in understanding how things can be addressed differently rather than having a massive one size fits all.
No need for fighting friend. Just conversation.
You mentioned LG and HTC. There’s a reason HTC doesn’t exist anymore and why LG has cut back significantly on manufacturing. Neither brand is known for quality products in this segment. They fell from grace pretty quickly. None of the major US cell providers offer LG devices for sale. The Samsung S3 and S4 are decade old phones and the battery issue mentioned was when the technology was changing. Fast and adaptive charging was taking off. There are always hiccups for any emerging tech. These points you made here don’t really sway the argument. You’re simply mentioning bad products or bad product design. Which is something Apple is just as guilty of looking back.
Chromebooks were designed as cheap planned obsolescence to fit a specific market segment. That’s why they initially received short support lifespans. The average consumer owns a laptop for just four years before upgrading. Can’t complain when the product is made with cheap parts to make the price cheap. They know it’s gonna be replaced. After several years of push back, Google upped it to 10 years. Unsurprisingly expensive Chromebooks hit the market. There are models out there with $2000-$3000 price tags.
A business that does what it does to make money. They do what they can to make the most money in the long term. Take a look at any second hand market service and notice the abundance of Apple products. People upgrade often so it doesn’t matter how long the device lasts. Society’s desire for new and better is the real problem here. It’s our fault we have such a high ewaste problem. We facilitated these companies to get away with it. No matter who you point the finger at, they’re all the same. They’re all bad and produce a lot of ewaste. Contributing to the pile in different and/or similar ways.
Which brings home the point. If Apple really goes through this much effort of supporting their devices for 8 to 10 years with software updates, why release a new one every year? Why not make them easily repairable? They don’t want you to so we buy new ones because we’ve allowed them to build their business on this cycle.
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I am sorry but what about creating new charging standards so that you can sell your own charging cables, adapters, etc. Don’t tell me that Apple is good, no they are not. Why do you think even today, you cannot use their headphones with Android or MS devices? They are actively trying to create extra hurdles and they only adopted the USB-C because of the pressure the EU put on them. Aren’t all those incompatible parts not increasing the e-waste?
Oh and if I am not wrong they were the first to introduce the non replaceable battery, and eventually the rest of the pack followed suit.
AirPods can be used with any other device that has Bluetooth. Your Android (technically falls under Linux) device, windows device, Linux device, chromeOS, and others.
The charging method they used was created for a different time period. During the first era of 30-pin they used it because it’s what the iPod used. During 30-pin to lightening there still wasn’t a standard. Android was starting to utilize Micro USB, but the amount of times that Micro USB just broke after a few uses was insane. A ton of devices I worked on back in the 10-13 time period with Micro USB ended up tossed because Micro USB was often attached to the board and people weren’t going to pay to have a new one attached.
Apple pushed hard into USB-C in the beginning. The MacBook Pro was the first device to basically have all USB-C ports and they got absolutely trashed for it. Heres just one of the many articles complaining about the new MBP. If you were around during the switch from 30-pin to lightening then you might also remember the PR nightmare Apple faced with people saying they were only changing the standard because of money and wanting more accessory sales. Without realizing that 30-pin broke like crazy and just sucked.
Apple listed several reasons for have a built in battery. I was a huge believer back in the day of user replaceable/swapable batteries. However over time after working on devices I’m on the side of internal batteries. The size can be slightly reduced. You gain better dust and water resistance, and quite frankly the cost to replace the battery in an iPhone for instance is almost the same as buying the battery if you wanted something OEM. I use to buy a ton of Zero Lemon 10,000maH batteries for my note phones and those batteries CONSTANTLY failed and I was buying new ones.
Lightning was leaps and bounds better than anything else on the market. Fully reversible, sturdier connector, sturdier plug. The only drawback was the apple tax, and that is easily overcome with third party cables.
USB C was released a full 2 years after Lightning, and Apple was part of the group that helped develop it.
And by “headphones” are you talking about EarPods? Because those things are garbage and most people wouldn’t even notice that they don’t work with other devices. Or are you talking about their AirPods, which all work with virtually any device that realistically supports Bluetooth headsets.
I started this comment intending to play devils advocate, then realized you’re just an uninformed individual with a hard-on for a company you don’t like. At least try to know what you’re talking about next time?
The question is are you always a **** and is your life so miserable that you feel the need to insult unprovoked, people just because the latter doesn’t share your opinion.
I see you are clearly an Apple fanboi but this doesn’t change the fact that Apple had fought furiously over the years to make their devices less repairable. They are even preventing you from changing their parts unless you do it in authorised centres. https://www.idoc.eu/blog/en/problems-after-iphone-repair/, battery gate, to name a few. Or are you so delusional. Fact is that Apple is on purpose creating closed standards that only their devices are supporting. Heck even their official apps are not compatible with other devices. If that’s not anti consumer practice, what is?
I notice you’ve dropped your original complains and moved on to completely different talking points. Was the goalpost heavy when you moved it?
The question is are you always a **** and is your life so miserable that you feel the need to insult unprovoked
Insult? I was a little hostile because you’re talking about something you obviously don’t have a firm grasp on. But I never insulted you.
Can’t same the same about you though…
just because the latter doesn’t share your opinion
Opinion? Those were facts friend. Unless you can tell me where I was wrong?
Apple had fought furiously over the years to make their devices less repairable.
Yes, a well known tactic that should be illegal. And oddly the only real issue in your comments.
Or are you so delusional.
What?
Fact is that Apple is on purpose creating closed standards that only their devices are supporting.
Hardware? Software?
The only hardware standard they had in place that actually affected anything like cross device support would be the lightning cable. Unless you’re talking about the fact that you can’t put an iPhone mainboard into an android phone?… which would make no sense.
Software makes just about as much sense though, since you’ve always needed to rewrite (or at the very least recompile) code between architectures.
Heck even their official apps are not compatible with other devices.
What does this even mean? Are you mad you can’t use the Phone app from your iPhone, on an android?
Or are you talking about the fact that iMessage is locked into the Apple ecosystem, which is a legitimate complaint but not at all what you said.
My entire point was, if you’re going to try to call out a company, list real issues. The only thing in all your complaining that is an actual problem is the fact that they have hardware pairing, and potentially that they explicitly lock out users from iMessage without an Apple device. Though that last one was me being generous with my interpretation of what you said.
Okay, since you seem to still insist that I don’t know what I am talking about:
Apple apps are incompatible with any other OS apart from Apple’s one.
Batterygate, when they started slowing down devices with degraded batteries
Not replaceable batteries on their devices.
Not replaceable SSD, RAM, etc. in their devices, everything is soldered.
Lightning cable: “According to AppleInsider’s rough calculations, the “Apple tax” (MFi certification + chip + cut) on a Lightning cable can account for half of the price of the cable. According to media estimates, Apple makes $5 billion a year by selling Lightning cables and MFi certificates.”
MagSafe is another example of proprietary standard, that’s not open to the public.
You cannot change the default browser or maps applications in iOS.
You can also check https://youtu.be/RIFQC8iA65k?si=T8ZAumHF29gZF0wc and maybe google Louis Rosmann
iPhones till today are not able to play MPEG-DASH or decrypt any other than AES & Fairplay encryption, which by the way belongs to Apple and surprise surprise is not free. Dash on the other hand can work with different encryptions, work on pretty much every device other than Apple and is more ubiquitous.
Heck up until recently they were not allowing their scientists to publish their research papers.
Spotify is suing Apple, because they are subject of the 30% tax, while Apple music is exempt, giving them an illegal advantage.
Did you know that in order to write apps targeting iOS you need to use MacOS, so it is not possible to do it on Linux or Windows.
Do you remember who started the smartphone patent wars as well?
Is this enough to prove how ignorant I am and technology illiterate or do you want more?
So yeah, I dare say I know a thing or two about Apple.
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Apple apps are incompatible with any other OS apart from Apple’s one.
Name an OS this is not true of.
Batterygate, when they started slowing down devices with degraded batteries
The alternative being the phones literally turning off and not turning on because the batteries could not support the device at full power.
The problem with this wasn’t the actual slowing down of phones, it was that this was a stealth update that was neither optional, nor was the user informed.
Not replaceable batteries on their devices.
They are actually fairly easily replaced. I assume you mean “easily removable without tools” to which I’d point out that while I agree it’s kinda shit, it’s also pretty unnecessary. If you want more battery power, bring a battery bank.
Not replaceable SSD, RAM, etc. in their devices, everything is soldered.
While I can agree that this is an issue of repairability, this also how 99% of the market works.
Lightning cable: “According to AppleInsider’s rough calculations, the “Apple tax” (MFi certification + chip + cut) on a Lightning cable can account for half of the price of the cable. According to media estimates, Apple makes $5 billion a year by selling Lightning cables and MFi certificates.”
One of the main arguments that makes sense to go against lightning. And while I am happy, for the most part, that usb c is coming, there are many points you’re ignoring with that selective quote.
Main one being that Apple footed the bill to develop lightning, which again is a much better connector than what was available prior to usb c coming to market.
That said, they really should have phased it out in favor of usb c.
MagSafe is another example of proprietary standard, that’s not open to the public.
I don’t see a problem with this. Where else do you want it?
You cannot change the default browser or maps applications in iOS.
This is not true. Hell, you can uninstall Apple Maps.
You can also check https://youtu.be/RIFQC8iA65k?si=T8ZAumHF29gZF0wc and maybe google Louis Rosmann
I’m well aware of Louis, and the right to repair movement. I also agree with the vast majority of legitimate issues with Apple.
I keep telling you that my issue is you talking about non-issues. I’ve never claimed Apple is good.
iPhones till today are not able to play MPEG-DASH or decrypt any other than AES & Fairplay encryption, which by the way belongs to Apple and surprise surprise is not free. Dash on the other hand can work with different encryptions, work on pretty much every device other than Apple and is more ubiquitous.
This is a decent complaint. I wasn’t aware of this actually, and the fact that Mac supports (or did at one time) it for Netflix and nothing else is telling.
Heck up until recently they were not allowing their scientists to publish their research papers.
Isn’t this normal for the industry?
Spotify is suing Apple, because they are subject of the 30% tax, while Apple music is exempt, giving them an illegal advantage.
<.<
How exactly does one charge themselves a 30% tax?
“Apple, you owe Apple 1 kajillion dollars.”
“Oh okay, here’s a check from Apples bank account. Be sure to cash it into Apples bank account!”
Did you know that in order to write apps targeting iOS you need to use MacOS, so it is not possible to do it on Linux or Windows.
Yes, well aware. Did you know you can install MacOS on a windows PC, within a VM?
Is this enough to prove how ignorant I am and technology illiterate or do you want more?
I don’t think this question is the one you meant to ask. 🤭
MacBooks only ever had problems if someone dropped it and broke the screen, otherwise those things lasted upwards of 8 years and that was 10 years ago when laptops didn’t last for shit.
I’ve used MacBooks for work for the last half decade, the entire generation of MacBooks manufacturered around 2016 until the M1 were released were entirely what you’re claiming some poorly manufactured phones were. My MacBook’s battery grew so much it busted the case open, and the touch bar constantly malfunctioned from the day I got it. So, it ain’t all roses as far as quality from Apple either unlike what you’re saying.
Oh, and another thing is that while they might not be the worst quality, they are often by far the highest priced items in their category. So, yeah Acers probably break more frequently but they’re like $300 while (like the video states) you’ll be spending $700 for locking wheels for a fucking Apple.
For the price they charge, they ought to be the longest lasting, best electronics ever made. But they are definitely not.
I got torn apart a few days ago for pointing out that these phones are actually very easy to repair. Barring the VIN locking on recent models, they’re pretty modular devices and, at least in my experience, are on the easier end of devices to repair. Also, when the iPhone 11 was the latest model, the bulk of the phones I was repairing were the 7 and 8, so even with the locking, that I will agree is bullshit, the bulk of devices are not the absolute newest. This notion that iPhones have to be thrown away if they have so much as a hairline is kind of stupid. There’s plenty of reasons to hate Apple without stretching the truth.
During the era of the galaxy S3-4 and the note 7 debacle (and I owned several notes) I never once in my time as cell phone repairs had a single bad battery iPhone come in. They just didn’t happen all that frequently. iPhones aren’t the best for repairs, but during the last two iPhone keynotes they’ve specifically started talking about what steps they’re taking to make them more easily repairable. Coupled with the absolutely amazing software and security updates and you end up with a device that’s better than almost every competitor for environmental impact. Even the darling of “repairability and environmental impact” the fairphone still only receives about 6 years of support. The modular repairable design of the fairphone is certainly amazing, but if you only give it 6 years of OS and security updates you’ve effectively made a phone that still has a service life of 6 years. Far below apples 8.5 years with the iPhone 6 and onward. Of all the companies they’re the largest and they’re still trying to at least be better about the environmental impact and their repair-ability. People just like to shit in Apple because they think it makes them “cool” or counter culture, or some kind of dumbass IT wannabe. The reality is that for 99% of people it’s a great phone, for its damage to the environment it could always be better, but compared to its peers it’s making massive improvements and pushing the industry in other areas. I think Apple sort of recognized that phones aren’t changing much these days so finding a new “thing” like repair and sustainability is what will set them apart.
iPhone 6
8.5 years
It has not been that long…
Edit: fuck it has, make it STOP
Galaxy s3-4s batteries were user replaceable
Also those are phones from 13 years ago, despite not having removable batteries the new Samsung phones get updated and are built to last, much longer.
Are You fucking thick, or being paid by apple? They release the same phone every 2 years and force you to change by slowing down software. I’ve had a cheap Xiaomi phone for 5 now. Still works fine. My friend has a Samsung for 8 years. Either one of these cost less than a fifth of a price of an iPhone. Laptops? I’ve had an Acer for 7years. It cost less than a quarter of a price of an apple with lower specs. Now I’m using a Lenovo for 3 years, end when I needed more storage space, I dismounted the 1TB hard drive from my 7 year old laptop and installed it in my current pc. And the 7yo Acer? I gave it to my grandma, she still uses it, so it’s being used for a decade now. Do any of this shit with an overpriced apple product, I dear You. Not to mention their stupid design. I was working once in an office where they used apple. Only time ever when my hands hurt from using a keyboard. And the moronic wireless mouse which looked the same front and back so people regularly held it backwards. And the charging port was on the bottom, so you couldn’t use it while charging. Overpriced, overadvertised shit.
First off, they release the same phone every year thank you very much.
Second, just because you’re using those devices doesn’t mean they’re properly supported. Those phones haven’t received a single security update in years which means you’re vulnerable to various kinds of SMS attacks that have been patched on devices that have received security patches. That’s the other part of E-Waste. Devices getting actual software and security support. Just because you can upgrade the SSD in a laptop doesn’t make it less E-Waste. You have simply now added a new drive to the mound of trash if that drive failed. Back in 2014-16 HP laptops had these Intel SSDs in them. They failed like crazy. Usually about 10 per every 100 devices. We kept a supply of SSDs on hand for when those drives eventually shit themselves. Now, on a MacBook a failure rate of the SSDs/internal storage is incredibly low. I personally haven’t had a MacBook that’s had internal storage failure and I’ve managed probably close to 750 MacBooks. So of the probably 2000 hp laptops, with Intel drives that we swapped after 2 years because they were dying. We created a decent amount of e-waste. Just because we could repair the device easily doesn’t mean it isn’t still contributing.
We need higher quality materials used in fab with longevity, not just repairability. I can fix almost anything given enough time. I can’t fix thousands of broken things constantly assaulting me with work orders because of unreliable parts.
Maybe don’t write out messages when you’re hOrni.
The “h” is silent.
It’s probably just the only phone he has
Yeah and I wonder how much gets recycled. E-waste is a massive issue that’s been around now for decades
I wonder how much gets recycled
To put it simply.
It doesn’t.
It is still cheaper to dig new shit out of the ground (due to all the environmental costs being ignored) than it is to breakdown the many metals etc within a phone for reuse.
microelectronics will be inherently difficult to upgrade, reuse and recycle. their continued hyper-evolution prevents any real programs. it will happen, but there are plenty of more voluminous, low-hanging-fruit we could be working on immediately.
these are bigger items that are now made like garbage like all home appliances. these things should absolutely be user-upgrade able, 100% recyclable and designed to last decades. they could easily be designed in more modular fashion, and absolutely used to last decades.
We’ll eventually reach a point where we can just have electronics scavenge the defective electronics.
You will find no argument here about the problems that arise when corporations are not required to pay for the garbage they produce.
However.
Optimising incandescent lightbulb efficiency is actually not easy to do. It is easy to make a lightbulb that lasts literally forever, if you run it cooler. But if you do that, your power efficiency will be total shit. (And your light will be uncomfortably red, but let’s say that’s less important for now.) You will waste a lot of money on your electricity bill. There will come a point when you will be wasting more money on electricity than the lightbulb is worth. This breakeven point is difficult to determine. It is a calculation that the average consumer shouldn’t be burdened with.
